Towing frame

[Tom Rae]

Geoff, one of the critical issues is the gross vehicle weight which is a manufacturer supplied figure. It includes full fuel tank. two passengers and their luggage. For a Pembleton Grasshopper it is 596kgs (figure supplied by Pembleton Motor Company) but the vehicle weight is only about 330kgs. If one then adds the A frame, lighting board etc to the GVW it is getting quite close to the 750kgs! A Lomax three wheeler would probably be near the maximum and I think the four wheeler would be over however I dont know if GVW has been established by Lomax.

Tom

[Geoff Ryall-Harvey]

Blackjack never published a gross vehicle weight and I have a weighbridge ticket for my car at 295 kilos.

Citroen's last published kerb weight for a 2CV was just 600 kilos - so it's difficult to understand how Pembleton manage to get a weight just 4 kilos under that.

Additionally the towing regs talk about maximum axle mass and not gross vehicle weight. It's not clear from the guidance which weight applies to A frame (or not).

[llanigraham]

Sorry Geoff, but the MAM of the trailer is nothing to do with axle weights, but the Maximum Allowed Mass, which is exactly what is stated in the Towing Regulations. The MAM of the trailer is the maximum weight it can be. For example an un-braked trailer has a MAM of 750kg, even though it's unladen weight may only be 250kg. If you then load it with 550kg it will be illegal as it would be 50kg over-weight.

As the A frame is fitted to the front of the car it will be included in the MAM. From all the figures I have seen a 224 Lomax is too heavy to be towed on an A frame.

You break these laws and you risk loosing the "trailer", at worst the towing vehicle as well, storage charges, plus a hefty fine and points. And it has happened!

[SILLYCVS]

Surely if towed vehicle is classed as a trailer, the carrying of passengers in said trailer is illegal, therefore the weight of passengers should not be included in the equation. As an aside, its been a practice of the A frame towers of heavier vehicles to use an over run hitch with a QD attached bowden cable connected to brake pedal of towed car giving a rudimentary braking system to all wheels

[Tom Rae]

Geoff, your weighbridge ticket is irrelevant. For the towing legislation, the weight I quote of a Pembleton is a gross weight and this includes maximum design limits for fuel passengers and luggage and this is what is required when the 750kgs is "measured". Whether they are actually carried at the time is also irrelevant - however daft it may seem. It would appear that MAM is the manufacturers gross vehicle weight PLUS A frame etc. all of which should be comfortably under 750kgs. With no manufacturers Gross Vehicle Weight you are on a sticky wicket imho.

Tom

[Geoff Ryall-Harvey]

The legislation that applies to the vehicle is that which was in force at the time of its construction or manufacture. My Avion kit was made and built up long before SVA etc. What was required at the time for registration was a weighbridge ticket to prove the vehicle weight. I have all the correspondence from the DVLA to prove this - so no sticky wicket.

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand how this thread has got from a reasonable question about using an A frame to general warnings about the sky falling in, the authorities crushing cars being towed at random and my car, in particular, being incorrectly registered.

I understand that some people would much prefer to issue warnings that "We're all Doomed" but I thought that we were trying to help each other around these problems rather than indulge in some huge difficulty stating contest. However, I bow to the greater knowledge and experience being displayed here and will take myself off and not ruin the fun with any helpful suggestions or solutions.

[llanigraham]

The legislation that applies to the vehicle is that which was in force at the time of its construction or manufacture. My Avion kit was made and built up long before SVA etc. What was required at the time for registration was a weighbridge ticket to prove the vehicle weight. (1) I have all the correspondence from the DVLA to prove this - so no sticky wicket.

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand how this thread has got from a reasonable question about using an A frame to general warnings about the sky falling in, the authorities crushing cars being towed at random and my car, in particular, being incorrectly registered. (2)

I understand that some people would much prefer to issue warnings that "We're all Doomed" but I thought that we were trying to help each other around these problems rather than indulge in some huge difficulty stating contest. (3) However, I bow to the greater knowledge and experience being displayed here and will take myself off and not ruin the fun with any helpful suggestions or solutions.

(1) Agreed, as a CAR, but when it is hooked up to an A frame it is a TRAILER, which has different rules. All your weight ticket shows is the unladen weight, and not it's MAM, and for a trailer that is critical.
(2) No one has said your car is illegal. What I have pointed out is the legislation that is involved with using an A frame, and the consequences that can happen if the Law is broken.
(3) Surely warning people of the results of breaking the Law is helping people?

[Tom Rae]

Geoff, my comments were also intended to help not prophesy doom! It is a controversial area and has often been raised here and there has also been some misleading advice given in the past though I am sure they meant well. My guess is that an Avion should be within the weight requirements, given that it is lighter than a Pembleton Grasshopper so I would not forsee a problem there however I doubt if a Lomax comes within the MAM limit of 750kgs mentioned above. Forewarned is forearmed.

Happy towing

Tom

[djmagee]

I have A framed for 20 years without any probs but I am well aware of the controversies surrounding this practice. I am aware of two members who have experienced issues. The late Ron Huston towed his 224 with a Citroen Xantia which had a much tighter turning circle than his 224. On entering a campsite he full locked onto his pitch and managed to twist the A frame, but more worryingly he also twisted the 224s chassis. Not pretty and worth bearing in mind. Another member towing with a Ford KA !!!! Jack knifed and stoved his 3 wheeler into the rear quarter of the KA under heavy breaking on a wet road.

[Venture]

Well that caused a stir I would like to thank all members who gave information and their comments.I have taken it all on board and I have now purchased a braked trailer which was made to carry a kit car and rated to carry up to 1000 kg.Before any one give me the shivers over towing, I tow a 1400 kg caravan and have towed trailer up to 3 ton and caravans for 43 years. Again any thanks and hope no one has taken offence from members who are only looking after other peoples interest cheers venture