Towing a 2CV / Lomax

[Geoff Ryall-Harvey]

For some reason, A frame towing is frowned on by many and misunderstood by the rest but provided the vehicle is under 750 kgs GVW* and the towing vehicle is "heavy enough" for towing this weight of un-braked trailer then it should be fine.

I agree - I have towed my Avion with either our Peugeot 806, our Ford C-Max or our Mazda 6 Estate. They are all sufficiently heavy (and the Avion light enough at 310kg - so its GVW should be well under 750kg) to allow me to flat tow the Avion anywhere legally. It tows perfectly well behind my 1.4 FIAT 500 but because of the relatively light weight of the 500 legally this can only be done in an "emergency" to get to a place of repair or safety and not to take it on holiday or to a show etc.

I really can recommend the 2CV City A frame and towing in this way generally. Bringing your car along adds an extra dimension to a family holiday and it gives you a lot of extra luggage space.

David - I take your point. Towing is inherently dangerous (like motoring itself) and you have to check and re-check.

[gordon burch]

Jesus! I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would tow a Lomax at 100mph on an A frame.
Sods Law dictates that things can and will go wrong and at those sorts of speeds the consequences could be horrendous!
The Lomax becomes, by law, an articulated trailer if towed on an A frame and as it has brakes fitted the said brakes must be operative. Which is why A frame manufacturers are now fitting electrically operated brake actuators with a system that includes servo assistance. this because they have to comply with the new regulations due in 2014.
The regulations state (I believe) that a trailer of less than 750 kg does not need brakes, however if your trailer weighs in at 400kg unladen and you then put your Lomax (say 450kg) on the trailer it now is over the permitted 750kg limit and as such must have brakes. Could be a problem if you are "pulled" into a weigh bridge station, or Mr Plod has got his superior thinking cap on!

It would be as well to remember that in Spain you are not allowed by law to tow any thing other than a trailer, laden or not. Those people who tell you they have A framed all over Spain without problems are to my mind "Lucky" that they have not been caught .
Most if not all "homemade" A frames do not carry a C of E plate as required in Europe so could be illegal anyway if challenged by the police.

I too have trundled the Lomax about in the UK on my trusty A frame but I feel it is only a matter of time before the whole A frame thing is wrapped up legally.

Regards to all Badger

[Tom Rae]

The Lomax becomes, by law, an articulated trailer if towed on an A frame and as it has brakes fitted the said brakes must be operative.

Gordon, imho, the brakes are demonstrably not trailer brakes and therefore do not need to operate.

Tom

[Geoff Ryall-Harvey]

Jesus! I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would tow a Lomax at 100mph on an A frame.

I agree - I was towing an Avion that was securely fastened to an A frame and not on an articulated trailer (whatever that might be). The Avion weighs 310kg, the A Frame weighs 10kg or so. I don't understand your point about putting the car on an A frame and the weight nearly doubling. I attach my car to the A frame because if I put it ON it, then the wheels wouldn't turn and sparks would fly from the A frame as I dragged it down the road. You must have some different sort of A frame than we've all been discussing here.

The 100 MPH was done legally on the Autobahn going through Germany on the way to Rome. Police of all types and all nationalities had the option to stop us on the road, at border controls and at toll booths. None did. In Germany we were passed by police cars when towing at 100 MPH. Going through France I regularly tow mine and other Avions at 80 MPH. In Switzerland we had to buy a carnat for the car and the "trailer" in order to use Swiss roads - the Swiss were fine with our arrangement and we had to visit the equivalent of a VOSA office to buy the carnat.

If you believe it is unsafe to tow at 80 or 100 MPH then why do you tow at 70 MPH? It is not safe to tow at any speed if you have not checked and doubled checked your towing rig. "Sods Law" is just an excuse for poor preparation - like the guy described earlier who towed his car in gear for a couple of hundred miles, wrecked the engine and then blamed the A frame. A towing accident at 25MPH could have lethal consequences. If you believe that an Avion or Lomax is unsafe to flat tow at speeds up to 100 MPH then how on earth can they be safe to actually drive under their own power at high speed?

Not worried about towing regs in Spain as I don't go there. If I do want to go there then I will check it out with the Spanish authorities. In the meantime, I just abide by the regulations in the places I do go to and currently it is legal to flat tow an Avion or Lomax using an A frame provided the tow vehicle is heavy enough.

[gordon burch]

Hi Lads, in answer to Tom, ok Tom I can see your point of view and as you said in your reply, you class your car as a trailer under the 750 kg limit which does not legally require brakes as a trailer. However this throws up the fact that as brakes are fitted to your ‘trailer’ they must be operational regardless of its weight. At the end of the day if you feel confident enough that if stopped by the police abroad you are able to argue your point as to whether or not your ‘trailer’ should have operational brakes then carry on doing it. Not sure about towing with the steering lock on though. Also not sure where you get the GVW from but my Lomax weighs in at under 500kg.
To Geoff. Hi Geoff. The trailer bit I put in obviously caused you some confusion but was intended for people worried about A-framing and considering transporting their car on a trailer. Towing a car ON a trailer is not as straight forward as some might think. The comment on weight was, of course, not referring to attaching your car with an A-frame but putting it on a trailer.
Info gleaned from A-frame makers says that home-made A frames are currently not legal and a manufactured A frame must be capable of operating the brakes of your trailer/car if brakes are fitted. This, of course, could just be a means of ‘persuading’ the man in the street to buy their product. You don’t say whether or not your A-frame operates the brakes of the towed vehicle.
As I understand it by 2014 if towing a vehicle fitted with Servo assisted brakes then that assistance must be maintained. In the case where a servo is not fitted as standard, e.g. our cars, then the hydraulics must be operative possibly by cable from the tow hitch to the brake pedal. As to towing at 70 mph I have never done that, as the legal limit in the UK for trailer towing is 50mph on most trunk roads and a maximum of 60mph on motorways.
No doubt someone will have more definitive info on these things, I’m only going by what I’ve read and been told and I am sure that the question of A-frame towing will rumble on for years to come (at least until 2014!).
I remain your humble club mate.
Badger.

[Tom Rae]

Gordon, GVW is obtained from the "manufacturer" I asked Phil Gregory of Pembleton Motor Co and he gave me it they are not the same as unladen weight which is the dry weight of the vehicle without passengers luggage etc, I quote from the Gov website:

Maximum authorised mass
Maximum authorised mass (MAM) means the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight.

It will be listed in the owner’s manual and is normally shown on a plate or sticker fitted to the vehicle.


If your Lomax is 500kgs unladen weight then it will almost certainly be very close to, if not over, the 750 kgs GVW, my Pembleton is 350kgs unladen weight and 596 kgs GVW. I don't tow on the continent so my concern is UK based. Fwiw I have attached a plate with the GVW on my Pembleton. The issue of the brakes is open to interpretation however my reading is that if the trailer has a braking system then it must work regardless of size.

My tow vehicle is permitted to tow a 750kgs unbraked trailer (and so is my driving licence)

Tom

[Mendip.Wursel]

Jesus! I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind would tow a Lomax at 100mph on an A frame.
The Lomax becomes, by law, an articulated trailer if towed on an A frame and as it has brakes fitted the said brakes must be operative. Which is why A frame manufacturers are now fitting electrically operated brake actuators with a system that includes servo assistance. this because they have to comply with the new regulations due in 2014.

Gordon
Where did you get this information saying that the brakes must work if they are fitted to a towed unit. I have just spent ages on the internet trying to verify this point and everything I read is saying you can tow 750kg un-braked, with no reference to anything about brakes must work if fitted.
Thanks

[Filbyflyer]

This is not as simple as it sounds.

The DfT has provided an information sheet about A frames and dollies which can be found here

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/d ... ollies.pdf

It says this:

“A”- Frames
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and “A”-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain.

And also this:

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. (my underlining)

Note that they state this as an opinion and not a guaranteed interpretation of the regulations. DfT in the information sheet says:

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.

I think this is because they are not sure they are right, and I think they are wrong.

The regulations themselves (The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986) say:


Application of brakes of trailers

19. Where a trailer is drawn by a motor vehicle the driver (or in the case of a
locomotive one of the persons employed in driving or tending the locomotive)
shall be in a position readily to operate any brakes required by these
Regulations to be fitted to the trailer as well as the brakes of the motor
vehicle unless a person other than the driver is in a position and competent
efficiently to apply the brakes of the trailer.

Provided that this regulation shall not apply to a trailer which—
(a) in compliance with these Regulations, is fitted with brakes which
automatically come into operation on the overrun of the trailer; or
(b) which is a broken down vehicle being drawn, whether or not in consequence of
a breakdown, in such a manner that it cannot be steered by its own steering
gear.

(incidentally the "broken down" exemption is a red herring - it is a concession only and applies to all A frame towed vehicles regardless of weight)

Note that it is a requirement to operate “any brakes required by these Regulations to be fitted to the trailer”. As no brakes are required by the regulations to be fitted to trailers with a gross weight of under 750kg then any brakes which exist do not need to be operated. The use of the term “brakes required by these regulations” is clearly worded to exclude any brakes which may exist but are not required by the regulations.

So where do DfT get their opinion from? It may have something to do with the definition of "unbraked trailer" in the Regulations:

unbraked trailer

any trailer other than one which, whether or not regulation 15 or 16 applies to
it, is equipped with a braking system in accordance with one of those
regulations.

This means (possibly) that an under 750 kg trailer which is exempt from the braking requirements but has brakes is not classified as an "unbraked trailer". Even so there is no reference to unbraked or braked trailers in the relevant regulations.

Does anyone know any different?

[Mendip.Wursel]

A very good and comprehensive reply Filbyflyer.... thanks.

I agree with your interpretation, and I just can't see a local Policemen ever raising objections about brakes not working on an under 750kg trailer, so I for one will be towing my Lomax with a tow frame without worry.

I think this paragraph can be read in two ways - Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly.

ie - (regardless of mass) could mean "regardless of the mass issue" in that the below 750kg trailers are exempt from the subsequent paragraphs content.

My thought for the day....

[Tom Rae]

Filby Flyer and Mendip Worsel, I think we are of one accord re the under 750 kgs trailer and brakes however one of the key issues not resolved is the GVW of a Lomax 223 or 224. As I understand it, GVW is the weight of vehicle with two passengers (how heavy?), full tank of petrol (25 litres) and a full compliment of luggage (weighing ???) and is usually supplied by the "manufacturer", Badger reckoned his was nearly 500kgs which does not leave much leaway. I see many vehicles being towed by unbraked A frames behind motorhomes and, in my view, these are not legal.

Tom