Has anyone come across this before with the clutch? My clutch cable broke at the pedal end with a bit of a clang about 3 miles from home last Friday and I managed to get almost home in 3rd gear, then when stopped by a blasted lollipop man, stopped the engine put it in first, started on the key and did the remaining 100 yards in 1st. While removing the broken clutch cable, I came across a coil spring on top of the engine underguard. Eye eye, that doesn't look right I thought. Sure enough, looking through the bell housing, it was one of the clutch springs, broken free from the pressure plate.
I've yet to get the engine out, but could that just be a cheapo pressure plate, or is that a not unusual occurence for a 2CV? I was told a 'new' clutch had gone in when I bought the vehicle, but how long ago 'new' was, I've no idea.
Clutch Collapse
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Geoff Ryall-Harvey
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Re: Clutch Collapse
Just had a look at the clutch I took out of my 1984 2CV engine and gearbox. No coil springs in it - it's a diaphragm. So I guess yours is either an earlier one or a trafficlutch??
They don't last for ever and most everyone would fit a "new" clutch (rather than a second hand one) but that could have been 15 years ago.... Time gets elastic as you get older!
They don't last for ever and most everyone would fit a "new" clutch (rather than a second hand one) but that could have been 15 years ago.... Time gets elastic as you get older!
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Ken Hanna
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Re: Clutch Collapse
Paul,
normally, the clutch operating lever is held clear of the 'spinny bits' by the cable, but if the cable breaks, the lever can move forwards far enough to clout the caps which retain the pressure springs.
If you found the spring, you may also find fragments of that cap inside the bell housing, with further evidence of the mode of failure being provided by those spring caps which are battered and bruised but didn't completely lose their heads.
Ken
( p.s. If the contact surfaces where the release bearing bears on the three operating fingers are flattened, that pressure plate has had a long and happy life. Problems arise when someone tries to get away with fitting a new driven plate with a coil spring pressure plate which is near the end of its usable life. The throw of the operating mechanism is reduced by wear and the combination I've mentioned can result in a broken cable or worse, a broken operating lever or bent fingers. )
normally, the clutch operating lever is held clear of the 'spinny bits' by the cable, but if the cable breaks, the lever can move forwards far enough to clout the caps which retain the pressure springs.
If you found the spring, you may also find fragments of that cap inside the bell housing, with further evidence of the mode of failure being provided by those spring caps which are battered and bruised but didn't completely lose their heads.
Ken
( p.s. If the contact surfaces where the release bearing bears on the three operating fingers are flattened, that pressure plate has had a long and happy life. Problems arise when someone tries to get away with fitting a new driven plate with a coil spring pressure plate which is near the end of its usable life. The throw of the operating mechanism is reduced by wear and the combination I've mentioned can result in a broken cable or worse, a broken operating lever or bent fingers. )
Re: Clutch Collapse
Ken,
Thanks for the info. Yes, you're right; there's some battered and bruised spring caps, though still with their heads on. I didn't realise there was such forward movement available at the nipple end of the clutch lever.
Having looked at my spare gearbox, I'm inclined to fit a 25 mm ID washer of width to be determined behind the thrust bearing. The width would be sufficient to keep the nipple end of the release lever clear of the pressure plate should the cable break again. I can use the joint faces of the engine and gearbox as a reference point to work out the intrusion of the pressure plate into the bell housing, then push and hold the release lever rearward a suitable distance and measure the gap where the washer is going to sit.
I can't see any problems with that. The washer will normally be held tight against the gearbox by the thrust bearing, only be able to move a short distance when the clutch pedal is pressed. At least that's the plan.
I'll be renewing all three parts of the clutch assembly (driven plate, pressure plate and release bearing). As you indicate, bad practise to do otherwise.
One last question; am I better off with a diaphragm pressure plate or a coil spring pressure plate for the 2CV engine?
Thanks for the info. Yes, you're right; there's some battered and bruised spring caps, though still with their heads on. I didn't realise there was such forward movement available at the nipple end of the clutch lever.
Having looked at my spare gearbox, I'm inclined to fit a 25 mm ID washer of width to be determined behind the thrust bearing. The width would be sufficient to keep the nipple end of the release lever clear of the pressure plate should the cable break again. I can use the joint faces of the engine and gearbox as a reference point to work out the intrusion of the pressure plate into the bell housing, then push and hold the release lever rearward a suitable distance and measure the gap where the washer is going to sit.
I can't see any problems with that. The washer will normally be held tight against the gearbox by the thrust bearing, only be able to move a short distance when the clutch pedal is pressed. At least that's the plan.
I'll be renewing all three parts of the clutch assembly (driven plate, pressure plate and release bearing). As you indicate, bad practise to do otherwise.
One last question; am I better off with a diaphragm pressure plate or a coil spring pressure plate for the 2CV engine?
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Geoff Ryall-Harvey
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Re: Clutch Collapse
For big horsepower motors (so not the 2CV then...) a coil spring clutch plate is regarded as tougher and more robust. Diaphram clutches came in mainly because they were cheaper to produce.
For a 2CV there's easier availability of the diaphragm clutch so that would be my choice. I have gone for a coil spring clutch for my big block Pontiac because it's a torque monster.
For a 2CV there's easier availability of the diaphragm clutch so that would be my choice. I have gone for a coil spring clutch for my big block Pontiac because it's a torque monster.
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Ken Hanna
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Re: Clutch Collapse
Paul,
interesting idea about a 'fail-safe' washer, however in 34 years of driving A series Citroens, I've only ever had one clutch cable failure and that occurred about 100 yards from home at the end of a 3,000 mile trundle to Portugal.
If you're thinking of using a diaphragm clutch mechanism whilst retaining the heavy flywheel, you'd need to go for the this type of 'conversion' clutch kit.
They've been around for a while now and I plan to fit one to whichever of our Dyanes needs its clutch replacing next, as I prefer the heavier flywheel but my dodgy knee would be happy to have a lighter clutch pedal to operate...
http://www.ecas2cvparts.co.uk/diaphragm ... -1126.html
Ken
interesting idea about a 'fail-safe' washer, however in 34 years of driving A series Citroens, I've only ever had one clutch cable failure and that occurred about 100 yards from home at the end of a 3,000 mile trundle to Portugal.
If you're thinking of using a diaphragm clutch mechanism whilst retaining the heavy flywheel, you'd need to go for the this type of 'conversion' clutch kit.
They've been around for a while now and I plan to fit one to whichever of our Dyanes needs its clutch replacing next, as I prefer the heavier flywheel but my dodgy knee would be happy to have a lighter clutch pedal to operate...
http://www.ecas2cvparts.co.uk/diaphragm ... -1126.html
Ken
Paul wrote: One last question; am I better off with a diaphragm pressure plate or a coil spring pressure plate for the 2CV engine?
Re: Clutch Collapse
Ken,
I had a look at the ECAs site and gave them a call. Another potential hiccup. My engine code A06/635, but specifically the engine number 0906018250, indicates a 1986 engine, which, apparently, would have had a diaphragm clutch. It appears that a different flywheel, one that uses a coil spring clutch, has been fitted to the engine at some point, hence the coil spring clutch on a diaphragm clutch engine.
Interestingly, the guy at ECAS prefers the standard coil spring clutch to the diaphragm 'conversion' clutch. He reckoned the coil spring clutch had a better action.
Next step is engine out, probably next week to see what's what. I've got a spare engine so I'll see what arrangement that has.
Regards the clutch cable, I'm having to fabricate my own clutch cable from 4 mm steel cable and homemade brass nipples that are soldered in place (cables ends fanned out into the countersunk end of the nipple, then soldered). Their quality is probably not as good as the OEM for sure. The clutch cable that broke was fitted by the previous owner and had steel nipples that had been brazed onto the steel cable, hence fatigue and failure.
I had a look at the ECAs site and gave them a call. Another potential hiccup. My engine code A06/635, but specifically the engine number 0906018250, indicates a 1986 engine, which, apparently, would have had a diaphragm clutch. It appears that a different flywheel, one that uses a coil spring clutch, has been fitted to the engine at some point, hence the coil spring clutch on a diaphragm clutch engine.
Interestingly, the guy at ECAS prefers the standard coil spring clutch to the diaphragm 'conversion' clutch. He reckoned the coil spring clutch had a better action.
Next step is engine out, probably next week to see what's what. I've got a spare engine so I'll see what arrangement that has.
Regards the clutch cable, I'm having to fabricate my own clutch cable from 4 mm steel cable and homemade brass nipples that are soldered in place (cables ends fanned out into the countersunk end of the nipple, then soldered). Their quality is probably not as good as the OEM for sure. The clutch cable that broke was fitted by the previous owner and had steel nipples that had been brazed onto the steel cable, hence fatigue and failure.
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Ken Hanna
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Re: Clutch Collapse
Paul,
in that case, the type of input shaft on your gearbox will be relevant.
'Long spline' were matched to the light flywheel/diaphragm clutch, but will work fine with the heavy flywheel/coil spring setup, with the proviso that the correct type of release bearing is also used.
'Short spline' should really only be used with a coil spring clutch ( or the conversion type), on which the dished hub of the driven plate provides enough overlap onto the splines.
The difference should be obvious here...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30132857@N06/4815265138/
Ken
in that case, the type of input shaft on your gearbox will be relevant.
'Long spline' were matched to the light flywheel/diaphragm clutch, but will work fine with the heavy flywheel/coil spring setup, with the proviso that the correct type of release bearing is also used.
'Short spline' should really only be used with a coil spring clutch ( or the conversion type), on which the dished hub of the driven plate provides enough overlap onto the splines.
The difference should be obvious here...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30132857@N06/4815265138/
Ken
Last edited by Ken Hanna on Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Clutch Collapse
Ken,
Thanks again for the info and photos. I should be able to determine what I've got next week and what my options are.
Thanks again for the info and photos. I should be able to determine what I've got next week and what my options are.
Re: Clutch Collapse
Engine out this afternoon and found the gearbox has the short input shaft. The clutch driven plate is dished as you say. The only other thing I've got to replace with the clutch assembly is the bush in the flywheel; the bush had completely disintegrated.
I plan to put my spare gearbox in the car. The existing box whines like mad and I've noticed a recent tendency to throw itself out of first on deceleration. There's also a driveshaft boot split which means there's not an additional load of work to change over the gearboxes. The spare gearbox has an identical input shaft (short) and was matched with a coil spring clutch. So all should be ok
. I hope.
I plan to put my spare gearbox in the car. The existing box whines like mad and I've noticed a recent tendency to throw itself out of first on deceleration. There's also a driveshaft boot split which means there's not an additional load of work to change over the gearboxes. The spare gearbox has an identical input shaft (short) and was matched with a coil spring clutch. So all should be ok
. I hope.